Wikipedia:Meinungsbilder/Archiv 2003

Esoo hed di Alemannisch Wikipedia aagfange:

Quälle:

Alsatian Wikipedia
Date: September 29, 2003
From: Alexis Dufrenoy
Hi, I would like to start a Wikipedia in Alsatian, a germanic dialect of the region called Alsace, in the north-east of France. The problem is that no prefix is defined http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Complete_list_of_language_wikis_available). Who can help ?
Thanks
Traroth

Re: Alsatian Wikipedia
Date: September 29, 2003
From: Stevertigo
I dunno. According to your WP article: www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsatian there are only speakers.
While there is a need to be international-- I dont think there is a need represent every language on the planet. Particularly when those people speak German anyway, right? It may be an argument that there need only be English x because everybody speaks and reads English. I dont buy this either, but these are the extremes. Also, one cant help but note the politics surrounding languages that are isolated and specific - I mean when we are little kids, we love the idea of having our own secret language, our own clubhouse, and what-have-you.... But when we mature, we understand the need to speak the common language.
I see by the light response that my sentiments—if not agreed with-- are nevertheless, shared.
S

Re: Alsatian Wikipedia
Date: September 29, 2003
From: Stevertigo

I dunno. According to your WP article: www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsatian there are only speakers.

ALEMANNISCH:
Population 4,215,000 in Switzerland, 63.6% of the population (1990 census). Population total all countries 6,044,000 or more. Region Central, south central, north central, northeast, and eastern cantons. Also spoken in Austria, France, Germany, Liechtenstein.
S

AW: Alsatian Wikipedia
Date: September 29, 2003
From: Alexis Dufrenoy
I understand your doubts. Traditionnaly, Alsatian is an oral language, but since something like thirty years, a written form is developed, and much books, newspapers and even website exist in Alsatian. Notice that it's one of the 2 most spoken dialects of France, with the breton language (I think it's the first, but I'm not completly sure). The cultural community is very active, so much contributors may be found.
Traroh

Re: Alsatian Wikipedia
Date: September 29, 2003
From: Brion Vibber

Stevertigo wrote: While there is a need to be international-- I dont think there is a need represent every language on the planet. Particularly when those people speak German anyway, right? I see by the light response that my sentiments—if not agreed with-- are nevertheless, shared.

Steve, this is a relatively lightly trafficked list and your response came only 5 hours after the original post, which essentially asked a technical question about language codes; I wouldn't read anything into the response rate.
In the ISO 639 system, Alsatian doesn't seem to have its own code, but would be grouped under "gem" along with several other relatively small Germanic languages and dialects that don't have unique codes. So, a more specific code would end up being something like "gem-fr".
I'd be happy to set up a wiki for this if there are people who'll use it; this minor technical matter should be satisfactorily resolvable.
brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

AW: Alsatian Wikipedia
Date: September 29, 2003
From: Alexis Dufrenoy
Diplomaticaly seen, to qualify Alsatian as "German" is very dangerous. The fact Alsatian is a germanic language is one of the indirect cause of 2 world wars (and even really direct for the first one), so people in Alsace easily become nervous with such matter... :-D

Re: AW: Alsatian Wikipedia
Date: September 29, 2003
From: Brion Vibber
ic! German-IC! :)
brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Re: AW: Alsatian Wikipedia
Date: September 29, 2003
From: Stevertigo
Well 6 million is more than I thought. We already have several wikis with populations of less. Brions condition of "if people will use it", doesnt exactly jive with Alexis's claim that Alsatians "even [have] websites." :-)
But who am I to say no - I should note that "so people in Alsace easily become nervous with such matter..." doesnt mean anything to me. Im not unsympathetic to minorities, I do however like to point out to short people that they dont need to get all irritable about being short.
Respectfully,
S
(good luck with your project)

AW: AW: Alsatian Wikipedia
Date: September 29, 2003
From: Alexis Dufrenoy
Know comes the hard side of the job : find contributors... :-D

Re: AW: Alsatian Wikipedia
Date: September 29, 2003
From: Ray Saintonge

Stevertigo wrote: Well 6 million is more than I thought. We already have several wikis with populations of less. Brions condition of "if people will use it", doesnt exactly jive with Alexis's claim that Alsatians "even [have] websites." :-)

To say that there are six million speakers is misleading. See http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=GSW
Among other things of the 1.5 million Alemannisch speakers in France there is no standard Alsatian dialect. In Switzerland mutual unintelligibility seems to be a way of maintaining the identity of the cantons.
Nevertheless, I will reserve opinion about whether I think it should have its own Wikipedia.
Ec

Re: AW: Alsatian Wikipedia
Date: September 29, 2003
From: Jake Nelson
I'd definitely support the existence of any future minor-language 'pedias. while I'm an advocate of teaching everyone in the world to speak one language, I think as much data as possible should be gathered on every language.
Jake

Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian (for Steve)
Date: September 30, 2003
From: Anthere

Alexis Dufrenoy wrote: Diplomaticaly seen, to qualify Alsatian as "German" is very dangerous. The fact Alsatian is a germanic language is one of the indirect cause of 2 world wars (and even really direct for the first one), so people in Alsace easily become nervous with such matter... :-D

easily becoming nervous is an "under statement"
I may agree with you Steve that this is very minor language, but please, do avoid saying to a french Alsatian that "he is speaking German anyway"...

Re: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian (for Anthere)
Date: September 30, 2003
From: Stevertigo

I may agree with you Steve that this is very minor language, but please, do avoid saying to a french Alsatian that "he is speaking German anyway"...

I didnt write that paragraph by the way-- And how was I talking to a French Alsatian? I thought I was refering to all Alsatians, regardless of their ethnicity. Why do you French people have to be so... French? ;-)
Again, not to be insensitive-- Ive simply have no interest in the matter whatsoever. Actually -- I do have an interest in new wikis, but thats a separate issue.
S

AW: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian (for Anthere)
Date: September 30, 2003
From: Alexis Dufrenoy
Alsace is a french area. There is no german or swiss part of Alsace. The areas over the borders have other names.
Traroth

Alsatian rights
Date: September 30, 2003
From: Chuck Smith

I dunno. According to your WP article: www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsatian there are only speakers. While there is a need to be international-- I dont think there is a need represent every language on the planet. Particularly when those people speak German anyway, right?

Whoa! I have to watch that this doesn't turn into a flame, because that was one of the most offensive statements I've seen in a long time (and I don't even speak Alsatian)! Remember that just because a certain people *can* speak another language, that doesn't mean that they can speak it *well* or write it well and for a lot of them it probably doesn't come naturally to speak German.
EVERY language has a right to its own encyclopedia! Even if there are only 10 speakers of a language, if they want to write an encyclopedia, I say they're welcome to it. This might be an important way to preserve languages for future studies for linguists even after they become extinct. An amazing way to contribute to our cultural and linguistic diversity!
Anyway, about Alsatian in general, I might also have rather strong feelings because I've actually heard it spoken while I was in Strasbourg and seen it on lots of street signs (hmmm, so I guess it is written, eh?), etc. Also, from what I understand there are a lot of Alsatians in France that don't speak German at all (but probably understand it).
That aside, from what I remember, the goal of Wikipedia is to have encyclopedias in EVERY language, and that's a small price to preserve the world's linguistic and cultural diversity.
Just to offset my comments a bit, don't forget that I'm a full-time volunteer for a language rights organization so I naturally have rather strong feelings on the issue (www.tejo.org)...
Chuck

AW: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: September 30, 2003
From: Alexis Dufrenoy
Excuse me if I ask so naively, but what will happen now ? How will be decided if an alsatian version of Wikipedia will be created or not ? If it will, when ? and so on...

Re: Alsatian Wikipedia
Date: September 30, 2003
From: Andre Engels

Brion Vibber wrote: In the ISO 639 system, Alsatian doesn't seem to have its own code, but would be grouped under "gem" along with several other relatively small Germanic languages and dialects that don't have unique codes. So, a more specific code would end up being something like "gem-fr".

I think "gem-fr" would not be optimal; first, it's quite a bit longer than the existing ones, second the objection mentioned against calling it "German", third the fact that we use "de" rather than "gem" for German (and "fr" is being used for French rather than Franconian). If there is no code for the language, and we do decide to go along with it, I would propose to use some unused three-letter-code for it.
Andre Engels

AW: Alsatian Wikipedia
Date: September 30, 2003
From: Alexis Dufrenoy
Like "als", for exemple.
Traroth

language rights
Date: September 30, 2003
From: Chuck Smith

I didnt write that paragraph by the way-- And how was I talking to a French Alsatian? I thought I was refering to all Alsatians, regardless of their ethnicity. Why do you French people have to be so... French? ;-)

Hmmm... funny that I made practically the comment as Anthere and I'm not French... I'll just leave it that you *really* don't want to get a minority language group getting angry. =) Just thinking of the groups that rioted burning signs because they were in English... it can be a really, really touchy issue for some people. Also, thinking of when the Italians poured oil down the throats of Slovenes living there if they spoke Slovene on the street. I might be making this out to be more than it is, but most people just aren't aware of how important language rights issues are...
Chuck

Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian (for Steve)
Date: September 30, 2003
From: Anthere

I didnt write that paragraph by the way-- And how was I talking to a French Alsatian? I thought I was refering to all Alsatians, regardless of their ethnicity.

Apology if I misunderstood then :-)

Why do you French people have to be >so... French? ;-)

To avoid being...German ?

Re: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian (for Steve)
Date: September 30, 2003
From: Stevertigo

To avoid being...German?

Touche'. And certainly this answer belongs among either or both of our "favorite wikipedian quotes" or in "most blatant (yet amusing) ethnic jabs.." :-)
I note that the term used on ethnologue is ALEMANNISCH -- so maybe am.wiki or al.wiki.
Chuck thought that every language even if it only has ten speakers has a "right" to a wiki-- this might be better said with a "should" in front. I would suggest also that this "shouldness" (not a right) should apply to languages in development which might be so new that they have only one "speaker." - If we are to be *philosophically consistent that is.
IANAP
S

AW: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian (for Steve)
Date: September 30, 2003
From: Alexis Dufrenoy
I note that the term used on ethnologue is ALEMANNISCH -- so maybe am.wiki or al.wiki. That's definitively not a good idea. Just let me say this : I'm currently living in Switzerland, and when they speak they locl dialect, called Schwitzerdütch (which is another form of Alemannisch), I can't understand anything. We communicate in German. It's completly different than Alsatian.

Re: AW: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian (for Steve)
Date: September 30, 2003
From: Stevertigo
Allow me to ask a different question -- (there is no alsatian wiki yet, so heres the discussion page--) given current trends of ethnoconvergence, how long will these "distinct" languages last?
Should Ebonics get a wiki?
S

AW: AW: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian (for Steve)
Date: September 30, 2003
From: Alexis Dufrenoy
I don't know and I don't care, for the moment. What I say is obvious : Create an Alemannisch Wikipedia is a nonsense ! Why not an Indo-european Wikipedia, if we follow this path ? That's easier. Why separate in english, french, german, and so on ?

Re: AW: AW: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian (for Steve)
Date: September 30, 2003
From: Stevertigo
Well dont get your undies all up in a wad-- It's certain that youll get your wiki shortly-- What 2 letter code, btw?
As for indo-european, Im more partial to proto-indo-european myself, but im not asking for a wiki for it. Well not yet. ;)
But I dont think its unreasonable to at least talk about the merits of small-language wikis, dont take it personally. Its perhaps a well-made point of yours-- that reality is what it is-- Alsatian and German and French are in their own way as distinct from each other as Chinese is from Arabic.
Point taken.
S

AW: AW: AW: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian (for Steve)
Date: September 30, 2003
From: Alexis Dufrenoy
In all Indo-european languages, you can find common roots in some words (like in "sister" : in French : "soeur", in German : "Schwester"). I'm not linguist, but I assume that between Arabic and Chinese, there are no common roots... :-D
Traroth

Re: AW: AW: AW: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian (for Steve)
Date: September 30, 2003
From: Stevertigo
Bu shir! (not so) -- At the one-syllable level there are commonalities of course. Consider that the "nursery of civilization" (after the cradle in Africa) is somewhere around Khazakstan-- (where people got 'lighter' and later went on up into Europe -- and Northeast into China> Japan>Alaska>North/South America, etc.)
But I'm at a loss at the moment of specific common words in Arabic and Chinese that are beyond coincidental. (its early) Certainly I can point to feminine/masculine conventions as a start--Also Greco-Latin which in some ways seems to carry some inbetweeners, being the third leg and all.
TBC
S

Re: AW: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian (for Steve)
Date: September 30, 2003
From: Nikola Smolenski

Stevertigo wrote: Allow me to ask a different question -- (there is no alsatian wiki yet, so heres the discussion page--) given current trends of ethnoconvergence, how long will these "distinct" languages last?

In my opinion, small languages, guarded by their ethnic communites, will last as much as their ethnic communities - wich could be longer then large languages, IF current thrends of ethnoconvergence continue; if they do, I would expect Alsatian to last longer then French, for example.

Re: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: September 30, 2003
From: Jimmy Wales

Alexis Dufrenoy wrote: Excuse me if I ask so naively, but what will happen now ? How will be decided if an alsatian version of Wikipedia will be created or not ? If it will, when ? and so on...

It should be created as soon as possible. I haven't followed the conversation, but when we say "every language" we mean it.

Re: AW: AW: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian (for Steve)
Date: September 30, 2003
From: Jimmy Wales

Stevertigo wrote: Well dont get your undies all up in a wad-- It's certain that youll get your wiki shortly-- What 2 letter code, btw?

Steve, please stop acting as if you have any authority at all, and please stop being rude to people.
Jimbo

Re: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 01, 2003
From: Staffan V

Jimmy Wales wrote: It should be created as soon as possible. I haven't followed the

But is it a language or a dialect? That is doesn't have a language code seems to indicate that it infact is a dialect.

AW: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 01, 2003
From: Alexis Dufrenoy
It's a dialect. I never said anything else.

Re: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 01, 2003
From: Brion Vibber

Staffan V wrote: But is it a language or a dialect? That is doesn't have a language code seems to indicate that it infact is a dialect.

There is no fundamental difference between "language" and "dialect".
Anyway, as I've already said I'll be happy to set up the wiki, I just need to double-check the most appropriate code to assign to it.
brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

AW: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 01, 2003
From: Alexis Dufrenoy
I'm very surprised by the number of negative reactions. It was really unexpected. Is it so every time someone try to start a new Wikipedia ?
Traroth

Re: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 01, 2003
From: Ray Saintonge

Staffan V wrote: But is it a language or a dialect? That is doesn't have a language code seems to indicate that it infact is a dialect.

I find that it has two main dialects: a “Nieder-alemannisch” used in most of the territory and a “Hoch-alemannisch” in the south.
The language/dialect distinction is quite subjective, and there seems to be a stronger case for recognizing Alsatian as a separate language than for Bosnian or Moldovan.
Ec

Re: AW: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian (for Steve)
Date: October 01, 2003
From: Ray Saintonge

I note that the term used on ethnologue is ALEMANNISCH -- so maybe am.wiki or al.wiki.

If we use "am" there could be rioting in the streets of Addis Ababa. "al" is available since Albanian uses "sq".
Using three letter codes in circumstances where we must invent our own seems preferable. Currently, only 3 codes beginning with "al" are in use: "alb" as an alternative to "sqi" for Albanian, "ale" for Aleut, and "alg" for Algonquian languages in general. The rest are available. "als" sounds like a good idea. If we are forward looking, any alemannic language that wants a wikipedia could also use a 3-letter code beginning with "al". The Ethnologue code for Alemmanisch is "GSW" but that's not helpful at all.

Chuck thought that every language even if it only has ten speakers has a "right" to a wiki-- this might be better said with a "should" in front. I would suggest also that this "shouldness" (not a right) should apply to languages in development which might be so new that they have only one "speaker." – If we are to be *philosophically consistent that is.

Languages with only one speaker have their entire population talking to themselves. Ec

Re: AW: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 01, 2003
From: Ray Saintonge

Alexis Dufrenoy wrote: I'm very surprised by the number of negative reactions. It was really unexpected. Is it so every time someone try to start a new Wikipedia ?

No. In this case it's just that some people doubted the existence of the language. No big deal.
Ec

Re: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 01, 2003
From: Staffan V

Brion Vibber wrote: There is no fundamental difference between "language" and "dialect".

A language is a dialect with an army. ;-)
Other than that, languages have ISO language codes. Dialects doesn't.

Re: AW: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 01, 2003
From: Staffan V

Alexis Dufrenoy wrote: I'm very surprised by the number of negative reactions. It was really unexpected. Is it so every time someone try to start a new Wikipedia ?

I think the core issue is if it is a recognised language or not. Since it doesn't have an ISO code it seems it's a dialect. Some people seems very negative to starting up wikipedias for dialects.

Re: AW: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian (for Steve)
Date: October 01, 2003
From: Andre Engels

Ray Saintonge wrote: Using three letter codes in circumstances where we must invent our own seems preferable. Currently, only 3 codes beginning with "al" are in use: "alb" as an alternative to "sqi" for Albanian, "ale" for Aleut, and "alg" for Algonquian languages in general. The rest are available. "als" sounds like a good idea. If we are forward looking, any alemannic language that wants a wikipedia could also use a 3-letter code beginning with "al". The Ethnologue code for Alemmanisch is "GSW" but that's not helpful at all.

I agree that 3-letter codes would be a better idea for uncoded languages than 2-letter ones. There is less chance that they are going to be created in the future, and less chance that if they are created, it is for a language that we want a Wikipedia for.
Andre Engels

Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 01, 2003
From: Anthere

A language is a dialect with an army. ;-)

Yeah. Just as "basque" language :-)
Traroth, Steve est le seul à t'avoir vraiment chatouillé. C'est sa façon d'être. Ce n'est pas grave.

AW: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 01, 2003
From: Alexis Dufrenoy
Oui, ça ne pose pas de probleme. On ne peut pas plaire à tout le monde...
Traroth

Re: AW: AW: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian (for Steve)
Date: October 01, 2003
From: Stevertigo

Jimmy Wales wrote: Steve, please stop acting as if you have any authority at all.

"I have no authority." Ok-- got it, sire.

and please stop being rude to people.

This part I will take to heart.
S

Re: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 01, 2003
From: Stevertigo

Jimmy Wales wrote: "It should be created as soon as possible. I haven't followed the
conversation, but when we say "every language" we mean it."

What about artificial languages? What about a true "interlingua" wiki (not the current purely Latin-one) where wikipedians can attempt to evolve the language they use? Should there be a wiki for Biblespeak, and legalese? Ebonics and Klingon? Esperanto (whoops got that one)--Lojban, and Vorlon? A Wikipedia written in the language of Love itself-- with an offshoot into Wikilove if its popular enough? How about a sign-language wikipedia, or an wiki with nothing but audio articles—edit wars will take on a whole new meaning then...
By "every language" you really mean "every *written language", correct? Arent there languages which are written and not spoken?
What is "policy" on this?

Re: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 01, 2003
From: Ray Saintonge

Staffan V wrote: A language is a dialect with an army. ;-) Other than that, languages have ISO language codes. Dialects doesn't.

I can agree about the army, but not the other.
Moldovan and Bosnian both have two-letter codes, but their status as anything other than dialects is seriously disputed. Moldova and Bosnia both have armies.
The three letter code "cai" applies to "Central American Indian (Other)" which can cover more than 150 often very different languages. Only Nahuatl, Otoni and Zapotec have their own separate codes. These people do not have armies.
Ec

Re: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian (re-sent without tags)
Date: October 01, 2003
From: Ray Saintonge

Stevertigo wrote: What about artificial languages? What about a true "interlingua" wiki (not the current purely Latin-one) where wikipedians can attempt to evolve the language they use? Should there be a wiki for Biblespeak, and legalese? Ebonics and Klingon? Esperanto (whoops got that one)--Lojban, and Vorlon? A Wikipedia written in the language of Love itself-- with an offshoot into Wikilove if its popular enough?

How about a sign-language wikipeida, or an wiki with nothing but audio articles—edit wars will take on a whole new meaning then...

By "every language" you really mean "every *written language", correct? Arent there languages which are written and not spoken?

What is policy on this?

The law of supply and demand is the most effective rule to govern this. If nobody wants to do the work, we can't insist that it be written by those who don't understand the language.
If a Wikipedia is set up for a language, and a single page (likely the Main Page) is written in the language isn't that proof enough that it is a written language? :-)
Ec

Re: AW: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 01, 2003
From: Nikola Smolenski

Alexis Dufrenoy wrote: It's a dialect. I never said anything else.

Of which language?

Re: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 01, 2003
From: Nikola Smolenski

Ray Saintonge wrote: Moldovan and Bosnian both have two-letter codes, but their status as anything other than dialects is seriously disputed. Moldova and Bosnia both have armies.

Bosnia doesn't have army. Each entity of Bosnia has an army on its own. And Croat-Muslim entity has one army so there is no army exclusively for Bosnian...

AW: AW: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 02, 2003
From: Alexis Dufrenoy

Nikola Smolenski wrote: Of which language?

It's a germanic dialect, mixed with some french.

Re: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 14, 2003
From: Jimmy Wales

Alexis Dufrenoy wrote: I'm very surprised by the number of negative reactions. It was really unexpected. Is it so every time someone try to start a new Wikipedia ?

I hope not. I fully support what you're doing here.
Ignore Stevertigo, that's my advice.
Jimbo

Re: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 14, 2003
From: Stevertigo

Jimmy Wales wrote: Ignore Stevertigo, that's my advice.

Speaking of being rude, Wales.
Considering my batting record where I come down on how things work-- regardless of the fact that occasionally I say something that will piss you off-- Ive every right to be wrong on occasion. You clearly didnt read all the posts -- didnt pick up on my playing Devils advocate-- you just picked up on the fact that someone with no sense for English subtlety complained about my challenges. I should have known better and used English more plain. So sorry.
If a language cant stand to scrutiny, what basis for inclusion are you asking for. Should there be a Castellano wiki? Do you understand the ethnic/linguistic differences between Espanol and Castellano? If someone wanted one--how would you know if someone didnt bother to ask?
S

Re: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 15, 2003
From: Peter Gervai

Stevertigo wrote: Speaking of being rude, Wales. [...] things work-- regardless of the fact that occasionally I say something that will piss you off-- Ive every

read: piss everybody off.
(I usually skip your posts as well. It's a free world, you have the right to be annoying, we have right to ignore you. It wasn't rudeness, it was an advice for a newbie without much stevertigo experience.)
grin
ps: for the record: some of your posts were on the point, and generally very useful. I just forgot to write down the date. :-)

AW: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 15, 2003
From: Alexis Dufrenoy
Ow, I have much experience with people like Stevertigo... Every internet community contains one or two persons like him. 'Guess it's also the case with every non-internet community, but it's easier to avoid them.

Re: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 15, 2003
From: Jimmy Wales

Stevertigo wrote: Should there be a Castellano wiki?

There already is one. http://ca.wikipedia.org/

Do you understand the ethnic/linguistic differences between Espanol and Castellano?

No, I know next to nothing about it, I'm afraid.
Jimbo

Re: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 15, 2003
From: Jimmy Wales

Alexis Dufrenoy wrote: Ow, I have much experience with people like Stevertigo... Every internet community contains one or two persons like him. 'Guess it's also the case with every non-internet community, but it's easier to avoid them.

But he has one valid point here: I was rude to him, and I should not have been.
Jimbo

Re: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 15, 2003
From: Andre Engels

Jimmy Wales wrote: There already is one. http://ca.wikipedia.org/

That's not Castellano (Castilian), but Catala (Catalan)! But as far as I can judge, we indeed do have a Castellano wiki, and it is at http://es.wikipedia.org – see "Castilian is the historical name of the Spanish language, (...) even those Spaniard who speak Spanish as a first language use the word castellano interchangably with español."
"El castellano es un idioma originario de la región de Castilla (de ahí su nombre), también llamado español (...)"
From what I get from these pages, a Castellano Wikipedia is just as little needed as a 'BBC English' one.
Andre Engels

Re: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 15, 2003
From: Jimmy Wales
Ah, see, well to my own credit, at least I admitted that I didn't know what I was talking about!
Jimbo

Re: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 15, 2003
From: Stevertigo

Jimmy Wales wrote: Ah, see, well to my own credit, at least I admitted that I didn't know what I was talking about!

Well, I suppose that there were *two valid points I may have made, then.
S

Re: Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian (forgot..)
Date: October 15, 2003
From: Stevertigo
Whoops! Forgot the smiley:
^_^
S

Re: Intlwiki-l Alsatian
Date: October 15, 2003
From: Antonio
Español and castellano can be used for the name of the Spanish language (in Spanish). They are the same. Also, castellano is the name of the Spanish dialect of Castilla and the old Spanish language. Sorry, I don't know the corresponding names in English.
cu

Alsatian wikipedia
Date: November 10, 2003
From: Alexis Dufrenoy
Hi,
I don't want to be sharp with anybody, but what's about the alsatian Wikipedia we talked about for a month or something ?
Traroth

Re: Alsatian wikipedia
Date: November 13, 2003
From: Brion Vibber

Alexis Dufrenoy wrote: I don't want to be sharp with anybody, but what's about the alsatian Wikipedia we talked about for a month or something ?

Sorry about that! I've provisionally set up a wiki at http://als.wikipedia.org/
It may or may not eventually get moved if someone's got a better idea; als is not an assigned ISO 639-2 language code but hypothetically could be assigned to another language in the future.
HTML output is marking the language as 'gem-alsatian', which ought to be more or less technically correct, as far as I can tell.
brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Re: Alsatian wikipedia
Date: November 13, 2003
From: Andre Engel

Brion Vibber wrote: Sorry about that! I've provisionally set up a wiki at http://als.wikipedia.org. It may or may not eventually get moved if someone's got a better idea; als is not an assigned ISO 639-2 language code but hypothetically could be assigned to another language in the future.

HTML output is marking the language as 'gem-alsatian', which ought to be more or less technically correct, as far as I can tell.

To Brion: Is Alsacian UTF-8?
To Alexis: What would be the name of Alsacian in Alsacian (for the Language.php-files)?
Andre Engels

AW: Alsatian wikipedia
Date: November 13, 2003
From: Alexis Dufrenoy
Is it technicaly possible to use 3 letters ? If it's so, why not LanguageAls.php ? Als is great... I think Alatian has no need of UTF-8. It use no french accents nor german umlaut
Traroth

Re: Alsatian wikipedia
Date: November 13, 2003
From: Brion Vibber

To Brion: Is Alsacian UTF-8?

All new wikis are being started in UTF-8, yes.
brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Re: AW: Alsatian wikipedia
Date: November 13, 2003
From: Andre Engels

Alexis Dufrenoy wrote: Is it technicaly possible to use 3 letters ? If it's so, why not LanguageAls.php ? Als is great...

Sorry, you misunderstood me. What I meant was that in the Language.php there is a list of the various language names, to show when there are interwiki links. In most languages (pl: and sv: are exceptions), the language in the language name itself is used there. To do so, I'd like to know from you what is the word for 'Alsacian' in Alsacian. Like "Deutsch" for German, "English" for English and "Polski" for Polish.
Andre Engels

AW: AW: Alsatian wikipedia
Date: November 13, 2003
From: Alexis Dufrenoy
Oh, sorry. The word you're looking for is "Elsässisch". I just check a reference web-site for Alsatian (www.verdammi.org) : german umlauts *are* used in Alsatian.
Traroth

Re: Alsatian wikipedia
Date: November 20, 2003
From: Aliter
Hello,
you (Andre Engels) wrote:

in the Language.php there is a list of the various language names, to show when there are interwiki links. In most languages (pl: and sv: are exceptions), the language in the language name itself is used there. ...

what is the purpose of using the language name in the language itself?
Sincerely,
Aliter

Re: Re: Alsatian wikipedia
Date: November 21, 2003
From: Andre Engels

Aliter wrote: what is the purpose of using the language name in the language itself?

The idea is that someone who stumbles upon a Wikipedia page in a language s/he does not know, might still notice the interlanguage link to a language s/he does know, and get their information there.
Andre Engels

Re: Re: Alsatian wikipedia
Date: November 21, 2003
From: Brion Vibber

Andre Engels wrote: The idea is that someone who stumbles upon a Wikipedia page in a language s/he does not know, might still notice the interlanguage link to a language s/he does know, and get their information there.

Yup. Look at this software box and tell me if the program is available in English or not if you don't read Chinese: http://leuksman.com/misc/forbidden-city.jpg
It's _clearly_ labeled! :)
If the links change languages -- or even writing systems -- from click to click, it's rather more difficult to use the system when hopping between languages (for fun or for maintenance).
brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

Re: Alsatian wikipedia
Date: November 24, 2003
From: Aliter
Hello,

On 21-11-2003 you (Andre Engels) wrote: The idea is that someone who stumbles upon a Wikipedia page in a language s/he does not know, might still notice the interlanguage link to a language s/he does know, and get their information there.

I see. Good point. On the other hand, it means that the much larger audience of people who do know the page-language have to suffer an ever increasing line of unreadable words at the top. Maybe not a problem with some 10 W, but at 30, 100, ...?
(Apart from them being unreadable, they will also take up ever more screen-space. Is there a future design for this?)
Sincerely,
Aliter

Re: Re: Alsatian wikipedia
Date: November 30, 2003
From: tarquin

Aliter wrote: (Apart from them being unreadable, they will also take up ever more screen-space. Is there a future design for this?)

it's a concern.
Future page designs should probably put them down in a side-column.
(BTW, please can we update thread titles?)